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Episode 5: Alan Oram

By May 24, 2020 No Comments

Creating Creative Comms
Remote Control Episode 5

With Alan Oram

Looking to get creative with your internal comms? Then this is the episode for you. With Alan, we chat about how to engage your remote workers with creative comms.

In this episode we discuss:

💡 How creativity doesn’t mean cost

💡 Getting creative at the planning stage

💡 How to use the remote locations to engage the entire company

Remote Control - Alan Oram

Listen Now

Episode Transcript

Jack:

With me today is Alan Oram from Alive With Ideas. Really creative agency tackling all things, internal and external communications. Welcome, Alan.

Alan:

Thanks for having me. Great. Great. Great to be here and to have a chat about remote workers.

Jack:

Yeah, I think it’s going to be really interesting from the kind of prior conversations have been around the creative approaches that you work with and some of the things to consider when it comes to trying to be creative. And just part of me thinks that remote work lends itself to that creative thinking to think outside out of the box. And it’s not just putting flyers on walls. It’s thinking about the plan and the message and getting out there in different channels. So yeah, I think it should be a great conversation.

Alan:

Yeah, there’s a lot to think about when it comes to remote workers and how to engage them. And obviously, there’s different as we’ve mentioned in our previous chats, there’s a lot to consider in there’s various different types of remote workers. They’re not always obviously office based, which is a trap that people can fall into. But if you’ve got frontline staff that are engineers, or they could be firefighters, could be nurses, or it could be people in a retail environment. And it is thinking about all of that as well. So yeah.

Jack:

Lots of different channels.

Alan:

Yeah.

Jack:

I’ll start off with an easy one. But pretty fundamental to the podcast is do you work remotely and to other people within the agency do they take advantage of the remote working options?

Alan:

Yes, yeah. So on that ship home today. So I still find it quite useful to get away from the office from time to time when I need time to think about the sort of bigger picture about either projects that we’ve got going on or where we’re taking the agency and things like that. Others do take advantage of that as well. One of the challenges that we do have with enabling remote working for some other team is just access to some of the files and bits and pieces of seed with video production, all that sort of stuff and pushing relatively big files around and that’s video animation and many other things that we get involved with.

So that causes some of the creative team a little bit of a challenge on that front, but whenever possible, we made sure we can do it because it works for them and it works for us.

Jack:

Sure, I guess some of the remote work for your team would also be working alongside clients, adapter machines or areas like that. So it’s kind of another different take on it really.

Alan:

Yeah, yeah. So typically, if we got, more client data members of the team, they’re out of the office a lot anyway. Which means that we need to be pretty flexible in the way in which we go about things and we want to, as much as remote working is a thing, flexible working as an approach as well as really important and try and get that balance right between people’s lives and what’s needed from our clients and so we are trying to balance those few things off so that people are getting a little bit of time back in their day, to do the things that they need to do at home. So that’s an important aspect too.

Jack:

Yeah, making sure that the tasks can be completed doesn’t rely on where they are, I guess.

Alan:

No, absolutely.

Jack:

The current theme that we’ve had across kind of remember the conversations on this remote control podcast is people kind of talking around things like work is a thing they do not a place they go. I thought I quite like that phrase.

Alan:

Yeah, yeah, completely as long as we can still create a team that feels connected whilst sort of making that approach happen. So that’s important in because I think we benefit from a good atmosphere in the office most of the time, so people enjoy that. So there is a little bit of a trade off, but I think we’ll probably touch on that a little bit later anyway, from client perspective, rather than from our own.

Jack:

Yeah, definitely. So one of the reasons why I wanted to record this podcast and get thoughts and insight into how companies are dealing with remote work. And this is one of the bits of research I saw from the Office for National Statistics that 50% of the workforce will work remotely  in 2020. Now, I think this kind of just touch on the potential misconceptions that you mentioned before around making sure we’re talking about office workers or frontline staff such as people in retail outlets. And I thought that’s a really to me as an office worker that’s struck me as a really large number. But yeah, that seems like a big company that are mainly our office space, that’s going to have a big impact on them.

And since then, I’ve seen some figures from the state of remote working from buffer, which is a really great report actually, and it suggests that 90% of remote workers want to stay remote for the rest of their career. So it’s not just this is what I’m doing now, kind of status. This is what I’m doing. And this is where I want to go as well. So really interesting. I’m just wondering what type of impact you’ve maybe seen on some of your clients or conversations you’ve had with clients around how they’re dealing with kind of a more diverse the spread workforce.

Alan:

Yeah, yeah. No, it’s a it’s a good point. And those numbers are high and they feel high particularly from the buffer side of things. I think when you get a situation where you can work remotely, the thought of going back to the office and the impact that would have on their lives, let alone their work and their lives would be yeah, you wouldn’t be sort of return to that way of working and it makes complete sense. So, yes, we’ve seen more and more clients sort of embracing that way of working.

And it does mean at times that there needs to be a shift, particularly if you are transitioning from one way of work into another. It’s easy, and we see it with some clients where everything gets a bit head office focused, for example, and then you’re losing sight of those people that aren’t in that working environment every day. So they become a bit hidden your hidden workforce. But I think those that are embracing it and needing to make changes culturally as well, so making sure that managers are on board and they’re supporting their teams and there’s trust in their teams to work in that way.

And there’s certain things that are driving it, isn’t it? There’s not only the flexibility and work life balance that people were looking for when they joined the company and I’ve been just talking about that this morning actually with someone. But there’s also the benefits from an organisation perspective about having less office space available and being able to sort of manage your kind of footprint if you like, so that you don’t need to sort of pay for as much office space. And I’ve certainly seen that with not just with clients, but with friends and things when they’re talking about it. If the organisation can reduce the square footage, then it can save money.

So there’s benefits on both sides. And I think typically you don’t see huge shifts in or I say you don’t see, but often there are a number of contributing factors to why change happens and if there’s a financial benefit to an organisation, then that certainly can help make it happen. But I think the cultural bit plays a massive part anyway, in the sense of, is it is what’s expected in a modern workforce that you’re going to be able to have, be able to work remotely and have flexible ways of working.

Jack:

Yeah, I think even just some of the terminology you mentioned there, in terms of reducing the footprint that makes me think about kind of even the carbon footprint of communities. And I think the buffer stuff around 90% of remote workers wanting to stay that way. I’d be really interested to see what percentage of that is down to the commute. So we’re working remotely that kind of totally cuts out half an hour, one hour, one way commute that’s a really big impact on that person’s life, both at work and at home and you can really understand why they wouldn’t want to go back into a role where they would need to commute on a full time basis.

Alan:

yeah. And if we think about it from this sort of made me think of a slightly different perspective, as we’re talking about that as well, in terms of the bigger impact, often, people’s most stressful moments of the day are getting to and from work. So, particularly if you’ve got kids, getting the kids out there or getting them off to school, getting in the car getting stuck in traffic, and that’s before your day started, you’re already stressed and wound up. I mean, when we think about health and well-being and that perspective on things, the benefits on not needing to do that commute are, quite significant, I think. And I think there’s been research to say that actually, the commute in many people’s day is one of the most stressful parts.

So it contributes to a stressful kind of working day. Yeah, so being able to there’s three different parts. There’s the organisation’s perspective, there’s the individuals perspective, and that’s on a mental health perspective, and then there’s the environment as well so that you can all have a positive impact on those three things, then that’s a pretty good reason to get on board with remote and flexible working now, I would suggest.

Jack:

Yeah, totally. It’s a very good case for it. And as long as the I guess the planning behind letting someone or a team or the entire workforce work flexibly is in place, then you can totally understand why more and more companies are adopting it and from an individual point of view I work remotely and manage to avoid the community stressed this morning, dropping my little one off nursery with a breeze because I then didn’t have to join everyone else going the same way on the rest of the commute. So yeah, totally get behind that. And it’s one of those areas in your day where maybe you don’t have total control over it. And yeah, not everyone is such a good driver as they like to think they are. So it can definitely add in that way, for sure.

So I really wanted to talk now about creative approaches or ways to plan for a creative approach to internal communications for flexible and remote workers, whether that be frontline workers such as in retail staff, or banks, or whether it’s those office workers that are working from a coffee shop or from their home. And yeah, I found some examples while I was researching for this episode, and I thought, we can maybe talk around a couple of those and then also just discuss from your point of view your expertise, some of the areas Where you think creativity can come into it Maybe a little bit more than you’d imagine or that we’re seeing currently?

Alan:

Yeah, sounds good.

Jack:

So one of the ones that really struck me was and this was a surprise was from the NHS. So the  goal was to get more of the staff getting their free flu jab to not be helping to protect patients from the flu during flu season. There was some it was between six sites in Merseyside and it was a really well planned campaign. it was a really small budget actually look looking at the award entry that I found this via I think it was a 3000 pound budget split Lynch way. So, you can have 500 pounds per site, and we all know the troubles of NHS health with budget so even though it didn’t seem like much I’m sure that was quite hard to find. And whilst the campaign was really well planned kind of went across different channels include video, print, digital, and in all the different rest areas as well. What really struck me was the copy the toner copy was actually it actually made you smile.

And that’s probably the last thing that for internal comms campaign from the HS. The word play, the creatives, the puns that the US did really kind of make even me as a researcher felt like take notice of it and kind of have a little wry smile at it and there was also the hard ware if they had record levels of their stuff taking up the free flu jab and I just thought that was really good because I can imagine it really stuck out to them on say, a notice board the funny creative that kind of alluded to the added benefits of the flu jab or just some of the puns. Everyone loves a pun. And I just thought that was really good. And from a really, from my perspective, really unexpected organisation to have that creativity and that might be doing NHS a massive, massive disservice.

Alan:

I was going to come in and defend, not defend because you’re not suggesting not good. And every year, I get involved with the comms 2.0 on awards, which is a public sector awards, sort of ceremony and thing to recognise the great work that goes on. It’s not just public sector actually, that’s wrong of me to say that but the problem with the public sector organisations sort of enter that and a judge the creative category and also judge the internal comms category. So it’s ties in lovely reward you’ve just been talking about, and I think they are as a group of people public sector comms company people do an incredible, incredible job with not much to work with from, as you say, from a budget perspective. We see entries that got far less money assigned to it than even what you mentioned there. There was a video that someone created of where they’d spend 12 quid buying some toys and they made the video themselves and it was an incredible piece of work.

And I think that’s sort of, to bring it back a little bit to what we’re chatting about. It’s really important that people don’t see creativity as a luxury item. Because one of the things that I often talk about is that it is not the budget that you’re going to spend on the end point. That is the important thing is the ideas and create a full process that you do before that. Your luxury item in that process might be time to think in a certain way. But I’ve worked with comms teams to sort of try and help them generate ideas and come up with campaign thoughts. And actually, with the right process in place, you can do it in a relatively short space of time, an hour or so. And you’ve got a load of ideas and how can you implement them and roll them out needs a bit of creative thought as well if you’re going to avoid spending any money. And so, it’s all about in the creative. So when you haven’t got any money to spend with is how can we make this happen with on a shoestring budget of the-

Jack:

Yeah, I guess without that budget you need the idea to really cut through and that’s potentially where the other creativity can come from because you know  that that’s the piece that’s needs to stand out above being able to pay to play in certain areas.

Alan:

Definitely. And I think what it sounds like from the campaign that you mentioned tone of voice and copy. If you’ve got someone that’s good with words and can write copy, then they’re going to give you something creative without because often people think about the creative bit as you can get drawn into the design side of things and the visual side of things. But if we parked all of that thought for a moment and said, actually, we want some interesting language that’s going to grab someone’s attention that will reinforce that message, but it’s got some good words that have got some nice wordplay or puns there. That’s a great standpoint, isn’t it?

Jack:

Yeah, you can’t go too far wrong with those.

Alan:

Yeah.

Jack:

So another one I saw was like probably the total opposite end of the spectrum in terms of the type of company. So there’s one I saw from HSBC. This campaign kind of engaged for can both engage all its employees in all the different branches offices all over the world. And they also, by the end of it have brand new library of internal comms, and images and visuals, and it was all for free.

Alan:

Okay.

Jack:

And so they run an internal photo competition. And it was to capture the spirit of HSBC was kind of the tagline was across various different categories of their spirits. And they received over 6000 photos entries. And that’s now what they use as their internal comms kind of images material. So there was no there’s no monetary prize attached to it. It was almost like the pride of capturing the kind of the company ethos and spirit and being able to see that in future communication campaigns. I thought that really struck me because again, it’s a campaign which had a specific goal attached to it in terms of kind of engagement and then something practical as well, the images to use and I thought from a large corporate company such as HSBC, I thought that that seemed like a really tactile approach. And again, I was a little bit surprised that a company like that came up with that type of idea really.

Alan:

Then we’ve done a very similar initiative with one of our clients actually. I don’t think they actually end up using those images is true internal comms. To a degree they do but it’s not the purpose if you like of the work but it’s certainly and they will do an annual kind of photography competition. And part of the reason why that is because they’ve got guys out on oil rigs and in the middle of Oceans places do doing their work and as you can imagine, there’s probably see some incredible scenes in those kind of remote sort of environment. So and actually, many people won’t get to go to that environment.

So if you’re based in head office, you might not get to go out onto a reef that’s it’s in the middle of an ocean somewhere. So how do we bring that closer? How do we bring that experience and understanding of the scale and scope of the work that gets done within an organisation and through an initiative like that is one way of doing it, I guess is because even though you can’t get to be there, you get to see it and understand it. Now, there’s nothing better than actually experiencing it first-hand.

But if you’ve got the imagery and they’ve got individuals perspective on where they are, at least you get some sort context to those different working environments that are around the world for someone like HSBC. There’s a guy that I know and he regularly posts, images of his working window, the view from my working window. And just snapshots of wherever he is that day as he’s moving around the country or whatever doing different things. So one day it will be, cafe in a train station somewhere or on a train or in someone’s office or whatever it might be, because he is always on the go. It’s a way of documenting what’s going on. And I find it fascinating just because it’s sort of a window into his world, if you like about where he is and what he’s up to. And it sort of strikes me that sort of what HSBC are doing but on a bigger scale. Yeah, and it gives that sense of feeling connected to those people, I think.

There was something that we sort of in a similar sort of vein I suppose a client of ours put together some videos as their employees, and about the things that they do away from work. So it was I there was various different stories of employees. So like one had run about 10 marathons in a year. There was an ultramarathon runner, there was someone that was a drone racer. There was someone that had taken up flying. There were people they interesting stories about what they were doing. They documented these and because they’ve got remote workforce that’s spread across Europe. It gives some sort of connection to those other people that are in the organisation and you get a sense of who they are, without even meeting them. You have some sort of connection to your teammates and your colleagues.

Jack:

Yeah, I think all three examples that you’ve mentioned. And even the HSBC version, it really makes people more relatable to each other. So while there might not be a measurable impact from the campaign, it’s inevitably making working together much easier. Having insight into kind of what people’s interests are, what they’re doing outside of the office, I’m sure makes meetings go a lot easier. And conversations can be sometimes less formal. And yeah, it just seems like it’s a really good way for companies to help people work better together. But that’s always can be really hard to measure, I guess. And that’s something that always comes up in the conversations as well as how our internal comms campaigns measured can it be done differently for remote workers? And yeah, so far, I don’t think anyone’s found that silver bullet.

Alan:

No, I guess some of and you’re right. I don’t think there’s necessarily one way of measuring and there’s no one sort of tool or approach to the remote workers. So, connecting with those remote workers, I think it’s about being brave enough to explore a few options and trying to find out what works for your organisation with the teams and the type of work that they do. I think technology’s obviously making life a lot better. And having those right, the right tools in place to connect people and then enabling them to interact and chat in a way in which is as natural as possible is really important.

Jack:

Yeah, totally agree. Totally agree. I think anything you can remove almost the screen persona rather than having it be just an email come from someone and getting to know the person behind that just makes it much easier.

Alan:

Yeah, definitely. And we see this in teams where they’re dispersed. So you’ve got, you might have head office and satellite offices and things like that and the tension that can build between the almost an us and then kind of culture between those people that are based in the head office. But when you bring people together in a room, and you start letting them chair, that, that breaks down, people don’t act in the same way. And with the right technology in place, you can echo that and get as close to that as you as you possibly can.

Jack:

Yeah, one of the conversations we had on a different episode was someone was talking about one of their clients held the usual conference calls. But almost as a standing agenda point there was the almost the preamble chitchat that an in person meeting has. So the five minutes before everyone turns up, you catch him on how was your weekend or that’s a nice tan where have you been. And this particular example was that they had this built in for the people that would kind of remote into those meetings and I thought that was a really interesting way of doing it, almost make it a point of it and it became on an episode we talked about being intentional, and you have the intent there to make sure remote workers are finding out about their co-workers lies outside of the office and just helping those conversations go along more smoothly.

Alan:

If we think back a little bit and think about why a lot of people would stay in a certain job, and when you ask that, that question, yeah, they might love, love the work in some instances, in some instances, they won’t. But often people say we’re really sure the people, that’s why it comes working it’s about my team and those sorts of things. And if we don’t want, I think remote work and flexible working is important. And we need to do that, and more people need to sort of make progress towards doing that if they’re not doing it now. But having a sense of connection with those that you work with is really important. I think that’s a lovely point that you mentioned there about being intentional and often you hear about meetings, taking too long or too many meetings, that sort of thing. But actually some of those interpersonal kind of chats that people are having are important to build a connection in a different way. And there should be space in the workplace to have those conversations.

Jack:

Yeah, totally agree. Regardless of where you are, where you’re working, it’s really important to find out that extra level about the people that you’re working with. And yeah, I thought it was kind of a really nice approach to do that.

Alan:

Yeah, definitely.

Jack:

So earlier, when you mentioned, can working with some clients on the process to be to help creative ideas and campaigns, I was wondering if you’d be able to maybe share some of tips or pointers on areas where kind of internal comms professionals can look to be creative or things to consider for their next campaign, how to kind of maybe just add the extra element of creativity into it.

Alan:

Yeah, sure. And I think it was interesting that you highlighted a couple of examples earlier about organisations that are being too creative, and perhaps you wouldn’t expect them to take that approach. I think there’s a huge scope for creativity in internal comms. And particularly, as I think you mentioned, there almost, it makes your message stand out more when we invest that little bit of extra thought into it and take a slightly different approach to what maybe people are used to seeing. So when I talk about some work, where it’s our clients or whether it’s just workshops and running, one of the things that people often kick back about is budget and time being the things that get in the way. And as you highlighted with the NHS case study their budget is never the thing that really gets in the way. Budget tends to get in the way of execution, rather than the ideas and the creative approach itself.

So I think the first thing if we are going to try and push the creative, the predator in internal comms, and then he contacted it, to be fair, is to try and free ourselves of some of that kind of, in the nicest possible way baggage that we carry with us. And to say, well, actually, we can’t do X because of that thing that’s getting in our way. So if we stop thinking and worrying about money for a while and just sort of step back from the challenge at hand, and try and get a fresh perspective. Now, when people are forced to do that is difficult because it’s like, okay, so where do we start with this? Where do we start? How do we start generating a fresh approach to this campaign that we’ve got in front of us? So the thing is, you need some stimulus. You need something that’s going to kick off a conversation between a group of people or if you’re by yourself, then, where do you start?

Now for me, I would tend to go out and start looking around and seeing what others are doing in a similar kind of space. And so if the challenge is about encouraging people to work remotely, let’s take a look see if we can find any other campaigns that are doing similar thing. Well, that typically leads to is a related area or field where I’ll be thinking, well, actually, okay, this campaign that I’m looking at now in front of me isn’t necessarily about remote working. But I can see where there’s connection. And I can see where there’s connection between that challenge and the challenge I’m trying to address. And yeah, it’s different. But I think there’s something we can borrow from their approach in how they’ve gone about it. So that’s more of a logical process, if you like, and I will keep pushing that approach where you get almost further and further away from the start of your challenge, because we can get bogged down in all the detail and all that sort of stuff.

The other approach, which I often do in the work workshop scenario, is to bring in some random stimulus so it might be random words, random images, that are the start point for ideas to address the challenge and on the surface the two words that springs to mind but from a recent workshop was someone picked from a whole range of words they picked pigeon, and laxatives, right? For the start of, so they didn’t know why they were picking these words, but that’s the word that they picked right off the screen. That’s right. We’re going to take Pidgin, laxative. And then I said, okay, here’s your brief. And it was about how can we increase the brief effectively without increasing awareness, so to support mental health within an organisation, and just one example.

So these people that were there had about three minutes to come up with ideas and they had different groups and they came up with different or came up with different words and different ideas. But there was one that said about how if you’ve been if a pigeon has dropped its mess on you as you’re coming into work, [laughing] I was struggling just for a moment then.

Jack

It’s a PG podcast…

Alan:

[laughing] I’ll try to keep it that way. Then it’s almost they were saying there’s a way of highlighting that you’re not feeling okay. And it made me think a little bit of the badges that people can wear on the underground where it says, like, hidden a disability and that kind of thing to highlight that there’s maybe something wrong, but you might not be aware of it. It was kind of built around that sort of concept, but coming from a completely different place. Now, I’m not saying our vows. Yeah, well, I’m not saying articulate their idea in the best way. They did at the time, there was someone else that talked about a pigeon and a peacock, and how peacocks are sort of all show and you see these feathers and all of that. Whereas a pigeon, they’re not maybe quite as flamboyant, but you don’t know which one is actually struggling perhaps at that point in time because we’re judging it on face value. And those things they didn’t go into that.

Often if you’re coming into that sort of moment where you have to generate ideas, you all you’ve got is the information that’s around you. And that can be useful and you need that because at some point, we need to tie it back into real world scenarios. But actually what those exercises are about stimulating some thoughts, stimulate into my days, getting some momentum behind a conversation around what can we do differently and not getting bogged down. into the detail of the challenge that’s at hand. I hope I’ve answered your question, which is survival as I was rambling on, but hopefully that sort of covers it off is about stimulus that comes from a different place than when the challenge that you’re trying to address I think.

Jack:

If nothing else, you’ve got the title of the podcast and pitching laxative. So that sort of we are good. So just before can I ask the last question, during our chat and some of my research, I came across elements of IC.com, one of the projects that you’ve worked on, and there’s some great materials in there about remote work about everything to do with internal comms, but in particular we’re looking at audiences and remote workers. I just thought they’d point some of our listeners to towards that site. There’s some many great articles and links on there.

Alan:

We’ve been chatting recently actually about doing a bit of the a refresh on some of that. Just because it’s been there for a while, and we need to update some of the content. But so as we’ve been talking about sort of remote kind of working and those kinds of connections, the interesting thing about I think that that project, so we put that together with Chuck goes from who runs the podcast typology and gets involved with a lot of other sort of internal comms sort of initiatives.

We connected through Twitter and through sort of mutual friends. We sort of just had a chat about a few ideas and bits and pieces. And since then, we’ve done sort of several little kind of projects together that are just labours of love and if you like, they’re just sort of bits that we’ve put together. But it’s interesting now I think we can make powerful connections. And we don’t always need to be in the room together to be able to do that. When you get on and when you connect with someone that can really work and whether it’s remotely or within the office environment, you can still make some great stuff happen.

Jack:

Yeah, definitely. I think you can look in probably everyone’s had the experience, at their work or in friendships. I think you’re always going to keep in touch with friends if they move away. The real friends will kind of doesn’t really matter where they are you always going to keep in touch with them, regardless of what I do in and that goes the same for projects, I guess at work. Now, this last question is one and don’t feel judged by answer. The judgment will come behind your back that’s totally fine. So, it’s not recorded judgment. So that’s the key thing. And the podcast is called Remote Control. And I just thought I couldn’t really do a podcast called remote control without asking about  your tele habits. So you’re watching something on the small screen that you’d recommend.

Alan:

Well, it’s just lucky timing because I’m not. I don’t watch a huge amount of telly. Most of the telly that I do watch tends to be kind of topical or satire sort of related to a lot of things like John Oliver and stuff like that. And yeah, that’s a great so I don’t tend to binge on too much other stuff, but I’ve been a little bit late to the party on Peaky Blinders, but that’s what we’ve been working our way through a home just recently because we didn’t watched any of it until it finished recently so for the season five I think it was ended. So we’ve got good support now we’re about to start season five and we’ve seen the rest of it. So I feel like I’m pretty clear on the judgment from if I’m watching Peaky Blinders but it might just my own perspective.

Jack:

I think probably half of the country will be nodding along and half the country will be turned off by now.

Alan:

Even better. The thing is, they might be that other half are still listening that are in disgust that have only just started watching it and should have been watching it from the start.

Jack:

But at least you’ve not got the time lag in between each series, so you don’t have to remember everyone’s face again and think where have I seen that person before or not. So that’s a good way of catching up.

Alan:

They still been a little bit of that, trying to keep up with where they are in their development.

Jack:

Yeah. Well, lovely having you Alan. I really appreciate the conversation that we’ve had and some of the examples that we talked about. And yeah, just the insight you brought. It’s been really great. And I think some of the creative approaches will go a long way for anyone looking at doing internal and like you said, even external comms as well.

Alan:

Yeah, great stuff. It’s been a pleasure to be involved and have a chat.

Jack:

Brilliant. Well, thank you very much.

Alan:

Thanks.

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