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Episode 6: Advita Patel and Trudy Lewis

By May 27, 2020 No Comments

The Internal Comms Holy Grail:
Measurement and ROI
Remote Control Episode 6

With Advita Patel And Trudy Lewis

How do you measure the impact and ROI of internal communications? It’s hard right? Well Advita and Trudy explore the findings of a research report from CIPR Inside: “Measurement and ROI for Internal Communication.”

In this episode we discuss:

💡 Why measurement belongs at the start

💡 The link between measurement and confidence

💡 The importance of getting out on the road to see remote workers

Episode 6 Remote Control

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Episode Transcript

Jack:

With me today on the Remote Control Podcast, is Advita Patel, the chair of CIPR Inside, and soon to be very own leader of comms consultancy, and Trudy Lewis, already there, leading the path in communication consultancy. Thank you. Welcome.

Advita:

Hello.

Trudy:

Hi.

Jack:

Perfect. Right, well, today we are going to talk about measurement and ROI for internal communications. So this is a topic that’s come up on every other episode of Remote Control. So, I thought I couldn’t really not speak to you two, seeing as you really spearheaded some research this year. So, it’d be great to hear what some of the findings were and seeing how we can talk about that from a worker’s point of view, and really find out what the challenges were, and any positive opportunities that you found from the research really.

Trudy:

I guess I’ll start. Hi. I … I think it was a group of us who followed on from a first report that we did about internal communications and its value. One of the findings from that first report was about productivity and performance, and can we prove that internal communication impacts those two areas. And that lead us to talking about measurement and ROI, and not unlike yourself, it’s a topic that comes up quite heavily for us as part of CIPR Inside, right Advita?

Advita:

It’s definitely an area where a lot of internal communicators do struggle with, and this report was quite important for us, as a committee and as a group, to try and lead the way and give a sense of direction for some of the guys who just didn’t know where to start. There hasn’t been anything in the industry, as far as I’m aware, that is directed at internal communicators and where they should be looking, so I think there’s a lot of confusion on what they should be starting with and where they should be looking and what they should be doing, and it’s often used as an excuse not to start measuring, because it’s just a little bit too hard. So, this report was definitely a guidance document for people who were not aware of how to start or where to go for information, to give them a bit of a helping hand, really. So, it’s full of rich case studies and examples and some tools, which hopefully get that conversation started in the organisation.

Jack:

Perfect. And when you’re carrying out the research, was it a mix of in-house, internal comms professionals, or an agency? What was the makeup of the people that you interviewed and studied?

Trudy:

Well, the report, as you said, it came from the other report. We decided this time to do some desk research predominantly. There’s an enormous amount of material about measurement, most of which was designed directly for PR, not for internal comms, and like Advita said, most of the material that you do find was not done specifically for internal communications, so there wasn’t anything there. So, we set out to identify as many reports that we could, both from management consultants across the industry, from other parts of the world, who had done reports on measurement. So, that was our main method, and then as part of that we also interviewed or put a poll out to practitioners in our network with a short set of questions around some of the challenges that they’re having, how are they finding measurements? What were some of the blockers? Just to see where they were in relation to everything. And that was also included in the report.

Jack:

Perfect. And in terms of, I mentioned it’s come up in previous episodes of this Remote Control podcast, people have been talking about how difficult it is, and that even making small steps to measure the tactics has felt like a good way forward if it’s not really measuring the strategic impact and the overall perhaps cultural change that internal comms is always looking to impact. And I was wondering, what have been the main challenges and barriers that you found during your research for successful measurement of internal comms? What do people really struggle with?

Trudy:

I’ll start. I think time was one of the big ones. Most … and this is probably because the focus was on that tactical kind of measurement. We measured clicks and analytics. Most people mentioned that time was an issue. Budget was a big issue as well, they didn’t have the money to bring in the mechanisms to measure. And also resource. So, it was all kind of around those areas that people felt it was difficult. And another part of that was, they weren’t sure what to measure and how to get started really.

Advita:

And I think building on Trudy’s point there, a lot of people fear measurement and numbers, and as communicators we are words people, and anything to do with figures and data and stuff does scare quite a few people away, and I think some people just want to not enter that space that they’re really uncomfortable with, mainly because of what Trudy just said, time is a big part of measurement, other’s resource, and as soon as you realise that it’s going to take quite a lot of time initially to figure out what you’re measuring and what outputs and outcomes you’re looking for. It does put a lot of people off. And internal communicators are normally people who work in a team of one or two, or don’t have the luxury to have a large resource available to them to do some of the measurements that would show the leadership team the impact that that team is actually having.

And the second part of this is, I think, from some of the conversations I’ve had with individuals, there’s also this fear of what if the measures are showing that the team isn’t having any impact, and all of sudden, what is their comfort zone of delivering newsletters and looking at how magazines are being impacted in the business. It suddenly shows that, actually they’re having no impact. And then it demonstrates to the leadership team, actually why are we spending money in this area. And I think a lot of people fear, in terms of what will they do, if that does … if that is the case when they start measuring effectively.

So, that is one of the … I think having the lack of resources, data, and time, but also the fear of what this measure will show if they did actually start looking a bit deeper into the impact it’s having across the organisation.

Trudy:

And I think for me, just following on to what Advita said, for me, all of that links back to confidence because we are skilled at what we’re doing, we know our job, yet still there’s an element that we don’t have the confidence to say, well, we know that it will do what we say it will do, and as a result we don’t want to measure it, because it then shows up whether or not it was a success.

Jack:

Yeah. If you’re … For want of a better cliché, it feels a bit of the chicken and egg situation, where without the measurement it’s hard to be confident that something is going to be successful. So, it’s kind of that perpetual circle really, where you’re going to need that measurement to be able to be confident and prove they’re successful and stand up in boardrooms or senior level meetings to standby or make those decisions perhaps.

Advita:

Yeah. And also, what are you going to do about it? You know, once you’ve got these measures and it’s demonstrating that the comms or the channels that you’re using or whatever your mechanism, is not having an impact, the leadership team will be looking at you to advise and guide them. And as Trudy said, 100 per cent spot on, confidence is a big issue for a lot of internal communicators in terms of, are they the right person to stand up against these leaders and say, “Actually this is the way we should be going.” And that’s one of the key aims that we want to try addressing as part of CIPR Inside, to help these individuals gain a bit of confidence in their role and become that trusted advisor with the right dataset behind them, to give them the guidance to the leaders that they work with, because they will be … Leaders may think they’re in the right, but they think that because they haven’t got anything to go against really. So, that is definitely one of the big issues, the confidence part.

Jack:

One thing that I was thinking about when Trudy, you mentioned time, and Advita, you also mentioned that as well, but talking about time being one of the challenges, and I was reading something this week that kind of put that into two perspectives. So, one was finding the time to set up the measurement and the objective in the first place, but then also the time period that you should be measuring. So, we talked internal comms a little bit earlier of being around culture change and changing attitudes and behaviours of all sides of businesses, and they move at different paces, but it’s kind of when is that line in the sand to say, this is a completed project, or, this is one we should be laying the measurement, and is there a potential framework or tool to keep that line moving and understand the progress of campaigns? I thought that was an interesting take, that it’s not just the time to do it, it’s the timeframe that you’re measuring as a whole anyway.

Trudy:

Yeah. Well, there are two things around that. So, it depends what you are measuring. And one of the key things dealing with that whole issue is actually setting smart objectives. If it’s a campaign, then it obviously, there’s a set timeframe. If there’s going to be a fallout in terms of sentiments and what comes after that in terms of how people feel, then there are secondary things that you have to measure. And within reason, you’re going to have to have a stop point, you’re going to have to say, well, six months after we’re going to review where people are.

And this is where the multiple methods of measurement come in. So, for instance, you might start with a direct measurement survey after an event for example, and then you might follow that up with focus groups. And then later you might say, well, let’s have a look at how the employee engagement survey is impacting that as well. So, I think it’s about using multiple methods, and most of the methods that we identified, we looked at things like Oasis, which is the Government Communication Service’s method, as well as a measurement matrix that we’ve done within CIPR Inside, and a bus load of quizzicals. And all of them imply that you should probably look at this in a wider sense instead of being, you know, “I’m just measuring this one thing.” Looking at it in a wider sense, and actually then saying, “Well, what am I trying to find out? Start with?” And that makes a difference really.

Advita:

I completely agree with Trudy, and to add to that point, measurement, I personally don’t believe that the stop-start, a firm stop-start really, it’s depending on what you’re measuring, as Trudy said. And campaigns and projects do obviously have an end date, and that is something a bit different to something like a transformation program or a cultural shift, because we all know that changing culture and behaviour within an organisation takes time and it can take years for it to change, which is why I always encourage internal communicators to look at data that we don’t necessarily own, but is available across the business, such as absence rates and retention and performance data and exit interviews, just to give you a sense check of how things are actually going in the business.

And there should definitely be periods of where you are doing a specific measure on something, such as a polls check to make sure that you are going in the right direction. And doing one at the beginning of the year and then one at the end of the year, engagement surveys, which … A bit controversial. I’m not the biggest fan of, to be honest, because I don’t believe that doing one engagement survey per annum or biannually or whatever your frequency is, is a great method for measurement. Because of, we all know they’re quite subjective, and it depends on what mood you are on that day and what your journey into work was like or what your boss has said to you in that minute. That engagement survey is very subjective to that.

So, if you are only measuring, and that’s the only measurement tool you have in the organisation, and you’re only doing that maybe once every two years, then that isn’t going to give you the right sense or the right measures, in my opinion, and you need to look at other factors that are available to you. And I think a lot of internal communicators sometimes don’t look outside of their own data that’s available. And I am big fan of working with other departments, such as Health and Safety, and HR, and IT, to see what the patterns are, and what measures are, and how long people are spending on certain things and what they’re doing, and why they’re leaving, or why they’re coming. And that gives you a really nice story to tell your leadership team, hopefully in a monthly or fortnightly meeting if you do have the access to them.

Trudy:

I 100 per cent agree with you, Advita. I think there’s that, and this feeds into why it takes time, because I’m a strong believer of going and finding out what other insight is in the organisation, especially if it relates to some of the things that we’re trying to achieve, if it’s something around engagement or so on, the minute you start to delve into these other areas, it means that you need the time to work it out, to have those conversations, to gather the data, to analyse it, and then apply it to what you’re doing. So, certainly, it can be time-consuming.

Advita:

I was just going to say that, and also just to understand what you are trying to achieve. There’s no point in saying, “Right. I’m going to measurement,” if you don’t know what your objective is, as Trudy said, if you don’t know what your smart objective is, and what behaviours you want to see changing in the business. And you need the support of your leadership team to do that. You need to find out from them, what is it that they want to see changing in the business so you can then adapt your measurement and what you’re looking for properly, so you’re not messing about and spending or wasting time measuring things that just don’t matter to that organisation that you’re working in.

Jack:

Yeah, I think that’s really interesting, and listening to what we’ve been talking about so far, I think and hope this isn’t meant to be overly simplistic, but it really feels like perhaps the challenge doesn’t necessarily lie in the measurement side of things, it’s perhaps the setting the objective side of things, which is all tied together, but perhaps there’s a slightly different mindset in terms of, at what point should you be looking at the measurement. It’s right at the front when you’re setting your objectives, and being able to understand what you want to impact and what needs to change, rather than three months or X number of months down the line looking at, “Oh. I wonder what happened because we did this.” And it’s an interesting take on it, and something that perhaps needs to be built in a bit more into that planning process.

Trudy:

Yeah. Just to say, I remember working with a comms consultant, who’s quite senior, came into the organisation to help with some change, and we were having this conversation about measurement, and he mentioned how … it was probably the first time I heard it, I was more junior then, and he said, measurement has to be built in from the strategic level. So, when you’re writing your comms strategy, it needs to frame part of your comms strategy, so what are you going to do every single time you do a comms activity, and how are you going to handle it. In that way, you’ve kind of set an expectation that you’re going to measure each time. And if it’s set up from that point, things like arguing for a little bit of budget to help you do that, making the time, exploring the other areas that you need to feed into that, become a little bit easier.

Advita:

And it’s not about sitting in your own little box or team and having that conversation, it’s about involving your leader or whoever asked to, in terms of the strategic side of things, in terms of what they want, and having that conversation with them and asking the, “Why?” We often, as communicators, are so busy delivering and doing tactical delivery at that, that we do often forget to ask them the, “Why?” Why are we doing this? What are you expecting to see in terms of us doing this? And what’s the return on investment if we do this? And asking them actually, what is it that you want to see, behavioural life change? And what impact are you expecting to see in the business in the long run, and letting them come up with some of the answers as well, because they will know. So, rather than you trying to figure out for them, ask them and have that two-way conversation, and then you can form your strategy and inform your planning much more effectively than just sitting on your own or with another colleague trying to figure out what this leader wants from you.

Jack:

Yeah, and I guess that again reties back into that confidence piece, is being able to be confident enough to ask that, “Why?” To ask that second question to help your plans, is to be able to get that clarity from that senior team.

So, following on from that, one of the pieces of information that I pulled up from your research was, you highlighted the cost to, I think, the UK economy, of unengaged employees is something crazy, like 60 billion pounds, and I think probably that does tie back into something that you’ve just mentioned, Advita, in terms of maybe absence rates, kind of cost can be impacted in there. And some of the research that I’ve mentioned on previous episodes has been how remote workers are some of the most unengaged, some of the most happy, because their flexible working arrangements have been met, or they’re really enjoying part of the remote team if they’re, say, in retail, but their stats, and I think this is from Gallup, the state of sector, showed that the remote workers were the least engaged. So, I was just wondering how that measurement piece can look to combat that cost of their engagement, and if there’s any slight tweaks for remote workers, or whether that’s a red herring, and really keeping the whole employee base engaged is really what their objectives and measurements should be focused on.

Trudy:

I’ll pick up on that. The Teague Group did a piece of research and they said that about 43 per cent … Sorry, engaged employees are up to 43 per cent more productive than employees that are not engaged. And one of the things that data enables us to do is to do more. So, if engagement is important if, and we’ve got it in the research as well, if CO’s are passionate about internal communication and getting employees engaged, then any evidence that we can pull together to demonstrate that enables us to get more support, more budget, to actually achieve what we need to achieve. So, internal communication impacts engagements, if we can convince leadership that it’s a good investment, and this kind of goes back to ROI, Return On Investments, if they can see how it impacts their bottom line, and their bottom line includes the remote workforce hugely, because in most cases that’s the largest group, it then comes together and it works. So, you kind of say, right, we have that question of, are we getting return on investment if we invest in internal communication?

And instantly we can bring data around productivity, and the fact that you have this workforce that you need to get engaged, so yes, it’s a good investment, along with, obviously, other data and other research that you’ve done to support that, and how it impacts things like attrition and retention and all the rest of the business issues that come up that I believe internal communication can impact.

Advita:

And on that productivity, there’s lots of research out there that does demonstrate how, if you do invest in your remote workers and employees in general in terms of making sure they are engaged and inspired, their productivity output, as Trudy said, does almost double. So, if you’re engaged, you kind of, like she said, 44 per cent, but if you’re inspired, and that’s why we always talk about inspiring our employees so they come up with more innovation and ways to save money and et cetera. They’re almost 125 per cent more productive than a satisfied employee.

And that data by, for anyone who’s interested, is by Bain and Company, which is research done in 2015, and that slide for me, makes a really significant impact to the leadership team if we’re trying to prove why it’s really important to pay a little bit more attention to the remote workers. And they are the hardest group of colleagues, in my opinion, to measure, because they don’t have access to work phones and mobiles, so you can’t do the fancy click-through rates, in terms of outputs. It’s difficult to around if they’re global or if they’re spaced out across the UK. It’s hard to do focus groups with them because they’re normally shift-based workers who can’t take time off to attend a focus group, and you don’t want to interrupt their downtime because they need to rest in those times. So, as an internal comms person, you do have to think a little bit more creatively on how you’ll get those measures, and that’s where that, as I mentioned before, that HR data can play quite a valuable part in your measurement campaign and dashboards that you’re pulling together.

Jack:

Yeah, I think … You touched on it there in terms of the spread of remote workers and how that can be a challenge for engagement and then, as an extension, the measurement of internal comms. And you talked earlier about using different data points from different areas of the business, or different insight actually, is a better word. Something that I heard as part of the discussions for this podcast series, was using feedback in say, maybe like line manager conversations or one-to-one catch ups, and almost creating … I don’t think it was as simple as a word cloud, but it was identifying key words that were either being able to show that the internal communications messages were being understood, or whether maybe some of the old pain points and questions that the campaign was trying to fix and solve, were still be asked.

I thought that was a good use of it, because it wasn’t a direct feedback, like an engagement campaign that you mentioned, Advita, like a poll survey, it was more of a, this is about your work as a whole, and your relationship with the business and your manager as a whole, but the word that you might be inputting and saying might just help someone reflect on how their internal comms engagement is going. I thought that’s a really interesting way of doing it.

Advita:

Yeah, definitely. I mean, you’re spot on there, Jack. It’s the hearts and minds, right, of those individuals that you get by those word clouds that you mentioned, and that’s where you can start understanding the workforce a bit better, in terms of your measurement, and what they want and what they need from the leadership team. So, anything that’s similar to that, or just as creative, works well in my experience.

Trudy:

Yeah, and taking that time, again it comes back to time, but taking that time to actually meet them where they are, because a lot of the time, as Advita said, we’re not picking up analytics from them because they’re not on digital platforms. So, a lot of the communication is direct, a lot of it happens through their line manager or within their depots or wherever they are. It’s a little bit about the HR, sorry, the internal communication person going to where they are, doing, whether it’s a focus group or just having a chat with them, picking up the stories from them directly, rather than just saying, email me. I’ve never really had a great response from asking remote workers to email me. But certainly, going and having those conversations with them direct, one, they appreciate it, and, two, you end up getting some really honest conversations and honest feedback because you’re there in front of them.

Advita:

Definitely. And we’re going back to basics, as well. I think we are very all, we’re all really focused, aren’t we, on digital platforms? And I, for one, love them. I’m a massive tech supporter. But for some of the, depending on the operation that you’re working and what it is, some of these guys, they like the pen and paper method, so when they’re sat in their staff areas and there’s a comment card or a feedback card that they can post somewhere, that works really effectively, and it still works even in this day and age though, that people are quite comfortable writing down a comment on a card and posting it, and it’s in the moment as well. There are obviously cleverer ways to do it, but if technology and money and budget and all that kind of stuff is stopping you getting that feedback from this population, then you do need to just go right back to the basics of actually, how can we just gather this info.

And that is, I mean, that is time. We’re not saying that isn’t time, but in the long run when you start putting together your comms plans and campaigns, it’ll save you more time if you do it right in the first place, because you know exactly what the organisation wants, rather than guess work or hearsay or assuming because it worked in one organisation, it’s going to work in the one that you’re in at the moment.

And that, in my opinion, is one of the biggest mistakes some communicators can make, and who I am quite passionate about saying that, case studies and everything are amazing and it gives you a nice insight of how certain things work in some places, but do take it with a pinch of salt and go out of your way to understand what your organisation is about, who they are, who are the people, get out from behind your desk and walk around the floor and chat. There shouldn’t ever be a day in an internal communicator’s life where you don’t have a conversation with anyone all day. And if you do find yourself not talking to anybody all day, then something is quite wrong in your job, and you need to reflect and figure out why you’re spending most of your days in silence. So, that is something that I am hugely passionate about, an advocate for, is that getting out, and that helps with your qualitative feedback if you can get a hold of the data, insights, that you need.

Jack:

Yeah. And I think one thing that we’ve highlighted there is the tech. It’s a great opportunity, but then there’s potential barrier for different sets of remote workers. And one of the questions that I wanted to put to you guys was, does … the statistics research up there that talks about 50 per cent of the workforce being remote workers in 2020, and I’m just wondering if there are opportunities that tech presents for better measurement of campaigns and … I just wonder if that’s going to be … You’ve already touched on some barriers that tech presents, but understanding the opportunities that perhaps it provides as well would be interesting.

Advita:

Yeah, no, 100 per cent. Like I said, I’m a big fan of tech, and I do think that every organisation should look at where they can bring this tech into play, especially with remote workers. And we’re not only talking about remote workers who are operational, obviously, on their kind of floor, like retail or in an airport or whatever, we’re also talking about workers who are part-time or work from home. And there’s lots of different ways that technology can help bring these people together and give them a voice that they’re maybe missing or don’t feel part of that community.

And I’ve been looking, at the moment for example, at feedback … like similar to what Yammer and Microsoft teams offer, but it’s more accessible, and it’s available on a regular basis on your desktop or on your own personal device, because you have you remember that 90 per cent or 95 per cent of the workforce have their own devices, smartphones, and there isn’t anything wrong in working with the business to encourage people to use their own devices. I know at the airport, we were very much into, “Bring your own devices,” kind of policy, where we encouraged our workforce to use their own smartphones, by helping them by giving them WIFI access and hotspots where they could logon and have look at the app that we developed, that would give the internal comms team a bit of insight on who’s looking at what and how long for and that kind of stuff, which did help shape our measurement strategy and comms plans going forward.

So, there are definitely tools and stuff, but what I do say is just, look at where your business is at, what they are, what they need from that, and what the impact will be if you do bring this in. And we keep saying the three letters, return on investment, but definitely look at return on investment of whether this new tech will give you the results that you need to have an impact it will make in your organisation.

Trudy:

Yeah. I recently did my broadcast at the town hall and to supplement that, we used Slido so that we could get direct feedback from all the people who were joining the call. And I think it’s thinking about what else can you use? What else can I do to enable a little bit of feedback, a little bit of enabling a bit of employee voice so that people can talk back and give their opinion. So, it meant that this particular organisation is heavily into remote working, and that is in terms of work from home, work remotely, so it’s not necessarily that they’re stationed in a remote depot or something. So, for them, most of them are logged onto tech somewhere, so they did have access, it just meant kind of creating something else for them to work with that they could give feedback.

Jack:

Yeah. Slido is something really interesting, that’s something I’ve seen from an external events point of view, and that was really quite engaging, so I can totally see how that would work as a tool to help people get involved and get involved in those surveys and polls that potentially not as easy to do via, well, you mentioned email responses being not so great in the time, Trudy, and I think that’s something that’s a bit easier and perhaps a bit more native to mobile devices, is something that can help.

Trudy:

Yeah. I’m a big fan, like Advita, of all the things that have been coming in, in recent times, like bring your own device, and we’ve had to use that at times where employees are open to that. It’s very, very effective, which means that they are engaged and they do get connected, and looking at things like their shift patterns and making sure that you reach them at the times that they can actually look at things. I think one place I worked, they still just print magazines, but made sure that it was available for them when booked on, because they had like an hour of downtime before they went and did their shift. So, I think it is about looking at how people work, what you’re trying to get out of it, how you want to … what kind of data you need to then support, whether it’s the objective or the outcome or evidence, to gain more budget or to do more activities within communication.

Advita:

And things like QR codes, by the way, are making a comeback now. So, you reminded me there … Sorry, Trudy. You reminded me there, when you spoke about magazines, about measuring who’s reading what by the QR code clicks to get through to the website, and it’s a really clever way actually to see, since before you had to download an app to access the QR code to technology, but now you can just do it through your camera on your phone. So, if you hover your QR code over your camera, it takes you straight to where that link is, and that’s a really good way of measuring what your employees on the ground are reading, and how long they’ve spent on that website and you know. And so, you can be a bit clever about stuff like that. So, you can still mix traditional media with new tech and get the results that you need as well, in terms of measurement. So, I think that’s a really good way of also bringing in tech alongside print media, I should say, sorry.

Jack:

Yeah, that’s really great. I love that example of a bit of a hybrid approach. Yeah, that’s really interesting. And, I think QR codes have, like you’ve mentioned, they’ve been around for a while but I think people keep finding new uses for them, and as mobiles become a bit smarter, like you say, not needing extra apps and stuff like that, then it makes sense that those would be making a bit of a comeback. So, whoever invented the QR code, you’re not dead just yet.

Advita:

No.

Trudy:

No, not at all.

Jack:

So, it’s been really interesting, but I thought I would keep the tough part, possibly the toughest question until the end. And I said to a previous guest, there’s no judgment on your answers here, or at least no judgment that’s recorded. We can all talk about it off air. But the podcast is called Remote Control. I’m a huge telly addict, and have a Netflix list as long as my arm that just never gets watched, and so I’m just really, shamelessly, asking for TV recommendations.

Trudy:

Oh.

Advita:

Oh, okay.

Trudy:

I’ll let Advita start with that one.

Advita:

Well, I’ve got two, if that’s okay?

Jack:

Yeah.

Advita:

So, which is a bit of a cheat, I know, but the first one is … well, both are Netflix because I’m a big fan of Netflix, but one of them is Brené Brown. She does an amazing talk on vulnerability, which is just, I’ve watched that about six times now because it’s just such an inspirational talk, and anyone who’s going through a bit of a downer or they just want a bit of an uplifting conversation with an amazing woman, and a big inspiration for me, Brené Brown’s talk on Netflix is well worth a watch.

And the second thing that, and loved actually watching, was a Netflix series called Atypical. And it was about an autistic young man called Sam, and honestly, I mean I’ve never really been aware of autism. I knew it existed obviously, but I’d never really understood the impact it was having on individuals or what it meant, and that show was an eye-opener for me in terms of how autistic people, or, people with autism, I should say, handle everyday life. And it really gave me some insights in not only how to work and support others who may be dealing with that … autism, but also to think about how we communicate in our workforce, and not assume that everyone has, you know, one size fits all comms, as well. So, that series. There’re three seasons. It was absolutely hysterical in parts and sad in others, and it was just insightful, and I highly recommend that as a watch.

Jack:

Oh, great. Well, I’ll definitely check those out. Bit more highbrow than Brooklyn Nine-Nine or How I Met Your Mother. I’ll keep shtum on my recommendations.

Trudy:

Wow, Netflix recommendations. It has to be Netflix because I tend not to watch television very watch. I loved Brené Brown’s TED Talk as well. But I’m very into science fiction, so if it’s still on Netflix, I would say, What Happened to Monday, which is a Sci-Fi, kind of weird, program. Thriller.

Jack:

Okay. Yeah. A weird program. I’m not sure I’ve seen that genre on Netflix before, but I’ll definitely check it out.

Trudy:

Ah, no, well, it’s called, What Happened to Monday, and I think what’s interesting, it’s one of these futuristic looks at where society goes, and as you’re watching it, you realise that it could very well happen. So, I think that’s the weirdness about it.

Jack:

No, great. Okay. It sounds a bit like Black Mirror, which is-

Trudy:

Yes! It’s a little bit like Black Mirror. Yes.

Jack:

Perfect. Okay, well, I’ve just got one other question, and that was for, if people want to find the research, where should they head to?

Trudy:

So, the report can be found, a summary of the report is available for everybody, and that’s on our website, which is ciprinside.co.uk, on the homepage. The full report is accessible for members only, but if anybody does want to have a copy and have a look and you’re not a CIPR member, then please do feel free to email ciprinside@gmail.com and we will make sure that a copy is sent to you.

Jack:

No, perfect. Well, that’s great. Well, big thank from me for joining us. It’s been really insightful, and I think, thinking back to the previous episodes that I’ve talked about measurement being a challenge, this has really, I feel like, turned it on its head in putting people towards the objective side of things, and I think that’s a really great takeaway. So, last thing is just a really big thank you from me.

Trudy:

Thank you. Really enjoyed it.

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Jack Ford

Author Jack Ford

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